I Hate Car People

I hate car people. Well, maybe not you in particular, but statistically speaking, you very well may be part of the car culture that I despise.

This is more of a reflection on the community as a whole, if not society as a whole than a fun-filled article with a bunch of pictures. People generally do not like looking at themselves in the mirror or admit that they are wrong, so most will probably not read this to the end due to a subconscious guilt (ignorance is bliss after all) or they might be able to relate and see this point of view throughout their own experiences with the fall of the car culture, and quite possibly will continue reading. Either way, buckle up to figure out why you (probably) suck:

I never thought I would be writing such a negative piece on a community that has been such a big part of my life. But let’s rewind a decade. 10+ years ago, the car culture was quite a bit different than it is today. Especially car forums.

FORUMS

Back then, forums were a place where you could go to discuss content, get technical advice, and learn how to work on and make expensive repairs for pennies on the dollar. I remember my BMW and my friend’s Porsche had issues with their climate control system which would cost 1-2 grand to repair. Searching the forums found solutions for $45 and $0.20 each, and only required a little bit of basic unbolting interior pieces and a fairly easy solder repair. The forums use to be a great place to maintain a car that might be out of someone’s price range from a maintenance standpoint if they had to rely on a stealership for every repair. The knowledge of a global community for a given car enabled those with basic mechanical knowledge to make expensive repairs, and was a great source for advice on preventative maintenance items and upgrades. People were there to help each other out and simply ‘talk-shop’ about cars.

Fast forward to the present, and forums are now dominated by the trolls who use to lurk and hide in the dark, off-topic sections of a given forum, where their true character rarely saw the light of day in normal conversation, and where their inferiority complexes dominated any poor soul who was foolish enough to wander into their traps of arrogance and belittlement.

These basement dwellers (and the inner-troll of many good people) have now come out of the darkness and into mainstream conversations to show the community how superior their intelligence is. Everyone is an expert, but in their endless efforts to demonstrate how much smarter they are than everyone else, all they do is expose how ignorant they actually are. Their insecurities feed on those with differing opinions the same way subconscious racists hate anything different from themselves.

The long-standing brand rivalries between “BMW vs Mercedes vs Audi”, “Ford vs GM vs Mopar”, “Lamborghini vs Ferrari”, “Import vs Domestic”, battles that were synonymous with sports fans cheering for their favorite stick-ball team over another. However, this friendly and superfluous rivalry has turned in to a societal issue of actual hatred and towards anyone with different beliefs, or who owns a different brand/model car, or even differing parts that they have installed. It’s now the norm to hate, put others down, and attempt to discredit them than it is to discuss a topic in a positive light and providing information though personal experiences to benefit the community.

I have seen the separation of the BMW “M”-owning elite belittle the rest of the BMW lineup the same way Z06/ZR1 owners belittle base C7 owners, Hellcat owners berating SRT owners, Shelby or even regular Mustang GT owners hate on Ecoboost Mustang owners, AMG elites crapping on other Mercedes owners and so on. It‘s shameful to have seen people outright call others ‘poor’ when that person either couldn’t afford a higher end model, or could not justify the higher depreciation rates of a premium model for where they are at in their life. All of this sickens me. When did it become socially acceptable to be a bully?

CAR SHOWS

The same goes for car shows. It wasn’t too much longer than 10 years ago when you could walk through a car meet and overhear people praising the characteristics of a given car. I vividly remember a kid who couldn’t have been much more than 10-12 years old, a good handful of years away from getting his driver’s license, talking with passion about the great sounding naturally aspirated 6.3L V8 in the new C63 AMG GT, or the competing 4.0L 8,300rpm V8 in the E92 M3. In the import-tuner community, people either cherished the impressive off-the-showroom-floor drifting capability of the 350Z, or the over-the-top performance of the R35 GTR.

42 comments

  1. I have a 99 B14 Sentra that I have tinkered with for years. Not dog car level, but getting there slowly (lol). I was at a stoplight leaving work one day and I saw this beautiful 370z in grey turning left and me turning right. I gave the driver a thumbs up and drove off, didn’t think much of it. A few days later, a friend of mine on a Z website sent me a link showing a pic of my car and that 370z driver hating on my car, calling it a rice car and what not, basically tearing it to shreds. It’s a shame that you can’t be respectful of people’s cars and just judge by what you see and not what’s underneath the skin. I did read this article thru and I believe you are right. People are quick to judge others without remorse and it’s kind of a sad time to be a car fan right about now.

    1. Youtube/facebook comments are basicaly useless Mike, signal to noise ratio is too weak. technical forums about racing series or car building like Locost or FSAE or specmiata are usualy pretty good with way less trolls (although that argument over golfball dimples was prime trolling by that guy)

      There is a big difference between car guys that work/have worked in the industry and car guys in general. It’s the difference between an article about GTAC on Motoiq and on Speedhunters/Jalopnik. I can actualy ask a question on Motoiq and expect an answer instead of an opinion or criticism.

      I love talking about cars, but discussions with gas pump car guy end quickly when I understand that most people aren’t mechanically literate. I keep it at pleasantries and jokes about how my engine is rust free because mazda put a feature where it pisses oil all over itself.

  2. Just my 2 cents:

    Since I’m probably considdered old by todays standards, I am one who has seen and expirienced the change. But I honestly think there is another reason at work:

    Mobile phones

    Back in the day, you got on a forum behind your laptop/pc. Which ment, you got to first actually own one, plug it in/turn it on. Wait for it to booth up. Find the forum you are looking for. Read the topics on a big fish tank like screen. By then if your probably really interested and want to contribute, as you invested all that time already. It requires a lot of patience back in the day.

    Lets face it: Google is 21 years old. before 1998 the company didn’t exist. We used things like Altavista and Netscape. And don’t get me wrong: Both of them sucked compaired to what we use now. But because they sucked and still used them you at least had patience….

    Nowadays your phone is always on. When a fart can’t get past your cornhole people write about it. Or post it on Instagram. It’s mostly because everybody can use the internet at a whim that these problems arise. Its the sheep that want to be a part of something that causes the problems. Not the actual car guys that work on cars themselves.

    Back in the early the fast and the furious days those cars wheren’t on the internet yet, but you see them at car meetings and street races. The people where a exhaust equals 50 extra horsepower although the engine makes only 40.

    In my native Dutch I like to call them “Petjes Volk”. Its litterally translated as cap wearing people, but it usually means the lower end of the IQ spectrum, without being actually mentally handicapped.

    That being said: I hate everybody 😉 And this is the end of my rant/insight 😉 Does feel good to get that of my chest 😉 Oh, and posted from a screen 😉

  3. There’s a lot of egos in the car community. It’s easy to get sucked into two dangerous mindsets: tribalism (“Mustangs or nothing! Ford rules, GM is garbage”) and collecting (Forum signature mod lists, spending mega $$ on a “car build” without real goals). Ready access to social media on devices certainly makes it easier to fall into this. I personally think the shift in car talk from forums to Facebook and Instagram has been terrible for the hobby in general. Way less tech info, way more showing off.

    1. I think you are right as well. We were just having a conversation about this that if you thought forums were bad, social media is way worse!

  4. John,

    You’re completely right except about one thing. Car people have always sucked. 10 years ago the forums were full of crap advice. 10 years ago the car shows were full of assholes. 10 years ago people were tearing down each other to prove the car they bought was better. I’m sure that 10 years from now they’ll still suck, the forums will still be useless, and the car shows will still be full of assholes tearing each others cars down.

    1. Yeah, this is what I was thinking. I agree there’s too much negativity and not enough actual knowledge, but I think the author is viewing the car community of the past through a pretty thick set of rose-tinted glasses here.

      1. Agreed. Car shows have probably been a crapshoot since forever, but OP was younger and less jaded 10 years ago. There was certainly bad advice on forums 10 years ago, there still is today. People aren’t perfect, ignorance happens and if you’re lucky someone will correct it in a way that is effective and polite. In my experience, you’ll find pretty good people at autocrosses and track days. Bring a good attitude and you should have a fun time. I haven’t got the guts to risk my car drifting or drag racing, but I suspect there are good people there also.

  5. I think car people have always “sucked”. The loudest one never have much good to say and they are the easiest to hear. However I think that is true for every hobby I’ve been in. However, for every negative comment I’ve heard or read about my own or other peoples stuff, I have 10x memories of laughs, wins, and fails with my close friends and family. So those people can keep shouting, I have learned to ignore them. It’s likely that one day they will be humbled and figure it out, it’s just part of the process. I know I have been humbled a few times and I probably have a few more to go before I’m ten feet under.

  6. in my experience its not as bad as you make it sound… I mean yes all the negatives you listed do exist, but you make it sound like thats all that happens. personally I don’t see that too much…

    about v8 mustangs being better than v6/ecoboost mustangs or M3’s being better than 335’s and etc, well guess what, they are better. its also annoying to that v8/M3/whatever owner when the guy with the lesser car is going on about how the cars are the same or his is even better (hear this from some ecoboost owners) in some way. I bet 99% of the superiority complex started with someone being to annoying with their inferiority complex.
    Now that I think about it, I saw much more of superiority complex going on 5-10 years ago than I do now. I think now cars that aren’t the absolute pinnacle of performance but are still fun or unique in some way are starting to be much more widely accepted than they used to be.

    Toyota deserves far more public shaming for not offering a manual transmission in the Supra than it got.

    I’m completely with you on people reviewing their purchases though. its so rare to find someone that gives an honest review. its funny how people that spent their money on stuff talk about said stuff like they’re sponsored by said stuff. People really feel the need to justify their purchase and will be completely blind to any faults. The more expensive something is the more I see people behave this way. Till they sell it or replace it with something else, then it becomes a pos.

  7. Socratic Method or the 21 Century version: Street Epistemology It very well could help us great, good and average car guys convert into better states of mind about car culture. After all, us: we want to be entertained very well!!!!

  8. I think a lot of the problem stems from people building cars for the sole purpose of impressing others, and also assuming that is the reason why everyone else builds cars. They think it is some kind of status game when in reality 99.9% of the real world doesn’t care about cars in general and they care about your personal car even less. Always do it for yourself, help and guide those you can, and don’t berate them if they are not interested in your advice.

  9. I think being a car person, you naturally go through stages of evolution. For me, it’s easy to hate some of the people that buy a nice car but don’t want to wrench on it, or modify it. I think those people are crazy and I kind of hate them for that…my best friend is one of them, sorry!

    Personally, I got my first ‘attention getting’ car stolen (thank God the cops got it back, sans my $$$$ wheels) and had it for over 13 years. But nowadays, I purposely drive cosmetically ‘ugly’ vehicles that run great (because I make them run great.) The only time my current car has been broken into is when I stupidly left it unlocked. Yeah, it doesn’t impress people, but it drives and handles great, and has an awesome custom stereo, and that’s all I care about anymore, since I am old now. Besides, when you’re in the car, you don’t notice how ugly it is on the outside.

    Bonus Point: I don’t approve of street racing, but in my occasional spurious moments of stupidity, I do enjoy the fact that if I do manage to crash my car someday, at least, I won’t be destroying a thing of beauty. I honestly couldn’t forgive myself if I crashed some of the cars I see on the street (passed by a McLaren 720S earlier today.)

  10. I was all about this post until the author implies that the growing adoption of electric cars is somehow incompatible (or even actively destroying) car culture and that climate change is both not real and a dumb thing to try and fight. Those are two pretty ignorant positions for someone who claims to be against ignorance.

    As a “car guy” advocating for respecting the passions and interests of others, I would think you’d be all about the whole new frontier of electric hot rodding where you can Frankenstein a Tesla powertrain (or two Leaf motors) into all kinds of cars and go ridiculously fast with a “fuel” that comes out of an outlet.

    Also, it’s fine if you really want to fly in the face of the compendium of fact-based evidence that climate change is very much a real thing with real impacts to real people, but doing it in the same breath that you critique people for spreading misinformation on the internet is some next-level hypocrisy.

      1. How did I take it out of context? It’s one of the author’s closing arguments. It’s fair to say that single paragraph is not representative of the larger point of the whole post (which again, I mostly agree with the author’s overarching argument), but the author pretty clearly thinks that the push to reduce vehicle emissions as a part of stopping climate change is a key contributor to killing car community or they would not have written the following:

        “At the end of the day, the car community is probably on borrowed time with the push for electric cars, ever-tightening EPA standards, and a global panic over ‘climate change’…”

        I fundamentally disagree with that implication, and it’s the same kind of thinking that leads to rolling coal or cutting electric vehicle charging cables, which are some of the more odious “car culture” behaviors out there.

        1. He is talking about a cultural change in the way that people view cars is going to cause a decline in the number of enthusiasts. He isn’t personally advocating that kind of behavior.

          1. He still put climate change in scare quotes unnecessarily.

            Climate change is real & there are implications to our actions.

            Car people suck because of thinking like that, which is incredibly selfish and anti-science.

          2. I am not taking sides for this but I have also seen studies from reputable sources that refute man’s contribution to global warming. The earth is warming for sure, but it has been warming from before the bulk of man’s influence on CO2 production. Temperature estimation from Berkly Earth, NASA, Japan Meteorological Agency, NOAA, Met Office Hadley Centre, and others all show a near-linear rise from before the industrial revolution. Manea Lowa volcano in Hawaii spews more CO2 than all man-made sources combined and that’s just one volcano. If you look at global temperatures over the last 65 million years the planet is at a historical low point in temperature. During the Paleocene-Eocene (sp?) era temperatures were up to 15 degrees more than now and the polar caps were gone. If you look at temps over the last 10 thousand years They have been pretty steady and our current rise seems in line with historical fluctuations within this period.

        2. These comments are super ironic given the subject of this article….

          Have a discussion if you’re all about it. It’s perfectly acceptable to have a debate, to question things, even if they’re the mainstream thought.

          For the subject of climate change, I do no doubt the weather is changing. Always has, always will. I do not think I should give up my freedom of travel or purchasing in a vain attempt to stop this from happening. The weather is the weather. Attacking 15% of manmade CO2 emissions (which represent ~4% of total CO2 emissions) by replacing it with another technology that just moves a still-significant portion of the emissions upstream (electricity isn’t free, nor is power transmission) when there is far-lower-hanging fruit is a bugbear in my opinion. Do cars affect the air we breathe? Absolutely, but killing an entire segment for marginal gains is foolhardy and virtuous of signal only.

    1. While slightly out of context, I agree with the criticism. The problem being the OP kind of sweeps several complex issues into one point. Ie tightening emissions restrictions in california for ex, has no benefit global level because of say china’s factory pollution. – So i agree that is ironically small minded thinking on a post that is generally about open mindedness…

      To which I say have you seen photos of their smog filled air and how it blocks the sun? no thanks lol. Driving or motorcycling is about enjoying the environment around you with a machine. Preserving that enjoyment is preserving the environment too so a balance has to be struck

    2. Yeah, the author could have left out that viewpoint for the sake of not riling up the people who disagree, but getting riled up over it is no more helpful. Climate change is a complex issue and not everyone is going to agree on it. I agree with you on it, but I intend to own and drive a gas powered car as long as I can manage it simply because that’s my hobby and I want to. Electric cars are also my hobby, but they’re so different that I look at them as another hobby entirely. They don’t take the place of modifying gas cars; they parallel it. So not even everyone who agrees with you on it will fully agree with taking the path it’s leading us on.

      The thing about the new frontier (as you put it) of car culture is that it’s an entirely new landscape. Yes, it will be great, but it won’t be the same and some elements of the old car culture will be lost. That’s what most are lamenting. They’re looking at the possibility that losing some elements will result in a loss of appeal to some people, leading to an overall decline in the number of people drawn to it. I think that’s a reasonable thing to worry about.

  11. This article is actually pretty deep so i enjoyed it.

    I enjoyed this piece despite the authors momentary ironic ignorant views at the end, I think it is a good criticism of society, and how people engage with the internet and car culture differently.

    Trolling, and hate, and one upping and wanting to be seen as aficionados are all egotistical things. Which is motorsport and competition at it’s finest. But I agree with the authors general point is that is makes things harder for a community to function well, to share knowledge and info.

    This subject of self and ego and society was on a youtube video with Russell brand featuring Dr Gabor mate talking about how society has become an eco chamber of narcissism and noise and hate and in reflection it elects those types of leaders 😉 Car culture is not immune to these plagues of society.

  12. Anonymity. That is what killed off, meaningful discussions online.
    That is simple an evolution from the in-person trash talk between rival car clubs from the 80’s/90’s.

    The advent of forums for hobbyists, were a great resource initially. But as the WWW spread, and was more accessible to all, even ingrate-holier-than-thou folks, it is the anonymity that was provided; that started trolls and even more trash talking. It was a platform for a voice of some 16yr old kid who couldn’t even drive but got his superstreet mags each month.

    These days, all it takes is some proper writing skills, some conviction in your opinion, and bam! You’re a voice of authority on a topic.

    <– Going back to my cup of coffee, and doing old person stuff.

    1. Absolutely agree with your hypothesis. If you think car guys trash talk then you haven’t been in MMA discussion groups. 😉
      The harshest criticisms are from guys who don’t fight (or even train).
      I bet that the harshest criticisms of custom cars are from those who never machined, tuned, welded or painted a damn thing.
      Sign o tha times

  13. The problem with the online community is the Comments Section (yes, I understand the irony). The line “opinions are like buttholes; everyone has one and they all stink” sums up the Interweb’s inherent flaw; comments, both positive and negative, serve no purpose other than to create the illusion that the reader is somehow involved with the greatness, or suckitude, of an article. A family friend used to send letters to Rolling Stone magazine with his opinion about every single article written about any subject. The worst part was they actually published one of his letters, which sent him on a lifelong quest to spread his opinions in every possible venue. Such a huge waste of time and effort.

  14. Depends what forums you go on. There are lots of smaller targeted forums that are exactly the opposite of what you’re bitching about here. Depends on the people doing the admin, they can either enforce order and boot the goofs out or stand by and let the place degenerate into a shtihole. There’s lots of good forums out there though.

  15. I’m an older guy and have been active in cars and the culture since before I could drive. I’ve done it all…muscle cars, pony cars, Japanese imports, sports cars, German cars, luxury cars, etc. And to the article above I say: Who cares? Because I certainly don’t.

    I’ve never cared what some random shemp (particularly online) thought about the “ugly” spoiler on my MKIV Supra. Or that my 996 911 was a “disappointing (and ugly)” Porsche. That my Audi TT was a “hairdresser’s car”. That my IS-F “wasn’t as good as the German competition”. That my Lexus luxury cars were “boring and sterile”. And the list goes on and on.

    I didn’t buy any of these cars for approval, I bought them for their own merits and most importantly, my own enjoyment.

    The sooner you stop caring about what Random Nobodies think about your automotive choices or tastes, the happier you’ll be. It’s just noise in the ether. From people who mean nothing to you. From people who aren’t worth your time and effort. From online people that you’ll likely never even meet. In fact, all of these people’s thoughts are so meaningless to me that they don’t even register highly enough in my world to even care about them, let alone “hate” them and their opinions.

    When applied properly, ignorance can truly be bliss.

    It is for me.

  16. It may have to do w/ the American arrogant culture in general. Not specifically car people, but people in general. People forget to respect others in general. Not just cars. Could be the pants they wear or the hair style. Anything. People automatically judge. Just how people are. You go to other cultures and people are more receptive of different ideas whether it be low to slamming your car or all out performance. Different mind set. Adding all that up, we get what we get in forums or facebook groups or twitter comments.
    We’re all victims. How many people laugh at other peoples cars if they have a big wing or certain sticker. Ask a simple question on a forum and you get flamed. Hell, just the other day, a friend showed me a typeo they made on fb and he became an instant clown and an idiot.

  17. You are associating with the wrong kind of car people. There are 2 distinct groups. Car people that use cars as socio-economic status symbols, i.e. 95% of cars and coffee, or 98%model specific forum users are the kind that suck. These are the people who try to smoke the tires coming out of a carmeet and kill innocent bystanders as their mustang swerves violently out of control.

    Find enthusiasts that drive. For fun. Find enthusiasts that turn wrenches. For fun. We exist still. We aren’t on a corvette or porsche fanboy forum. We are probably on a Grassroots motorsports forum. We are volunteering at a weekend autocross, or trying to arrange a group to go karting on the weekend… we are quiet, but we are still out there…

  18. Oh. In addition to my above post, I need to add that I also married someone who loves cars as much as I do. So even in the absence of other tolerable car people, I’ll always have someone to talk to and indulge in this passion.

    But beware! This isn’t without its own perils! Because moving forward, you’ll never have a voice of reason or someone to save you from yourself during a needless or questionable car purchase. You will have no safety valve.

    Instead, the answer will ALWAYS be “yes, of course you should buy that car, duh! “. You’ll also never hear “Do we really need another car? “. Because she knows full well it will be another car for her to drive to fuel her passion too! Rather than being the advocate of reason, she’s a full on enabler.

    So in other words…I highly recommend this!

  19. I have been using forums since 2003. As a young high-schooler in Idaho, forums opened up a whole new world to me. The local forum was used to coordinate street racing but it also served as a gateway into imports, both Japanese and European. I’d argue that in those days, the message boards were MORE raw and rude. HOWEVER, there was a universal understanding of underlying respect for each person. This was reinforced when people would meet up once a month in person.

    There are still good message boards where the majority of the users “get it” are happy to share quality advice, as well and admit to being wrong (or open to other opinions). Typically they involve cars where ego isn’t a huge factor. One fantastic example is the bmw2002faq.com

  20. I read the whole rant. Here is mine.

    TL;DR of mine:
    I think the author only outgrew his enthusiasm, by getting old maybe. I felt similar some years ago. I think forums and meets have not changed, but his vision has. His diminishing enthusiasm let him see things for how they are, and were. Reading 10 year old messages from said forums should help the author understand it.

    Let me explain.

    I thought something similar some years ago, with the conclusion that forums and meets are not my cup of tea anymore. Just like the author i barely do it now, because most of what i hear or read makes me cringe.

    Thing is, unlike the author, i was on “the opposite” side. I was the guy that was curious and doubted everything, and that lead to getting hated and threatened for going against the general consensus.
    Expressing doubts on what most people hold true is not a good social move. I did not know at that time and learned the hard way. I wanted to expand my knowledge, and amongst the torrents of haters there were actually some interesting people that i could discuss with. Mostly in private messages since being seen discussing with me would hurt their local rep… They were also really seeking to know more. We still hang around, share what we know and discuss stuff, which does not mean we agree on everything.

    Anyway, i was the guy the author paint as “a know it all that only spouted nonsense and needed to be teached respect face to face”, which funnily was the message set as a reason for a permanent ban from one of these forums, 10 years ago.

    The story ? It happened after i doubted “lower = better handling & cooler”. Short version, after years of doubting, trials and errors, i ended up learning a lot about the S chassis and how to make it work. I then attended a trackday were i was quite faster than a couple of slammed s13 that i did not know about.
    The next day I tried to post onboard vids in the trackday section and got my ban notice instead. Turn out the slammed s13 owners were running a suspension parts business on that forum, and were quite vocal against my questions. Coincidence, eh …

    The conclusion i got is “never go against the opinion of groups of people”, or backfire effect will happen.
    Hence there is no way to find quality information on meets, or forums.
    Also, knowledgeable people might be found on meets/forums, but do not expect them to give their hard earned knowledge for free. Most engine builders have destroyed numerous engines before getting where they stand. Same goes for drivetrain or suspension specialists. Do not expect to get that for free.

    And thus, you will at best find generic, low value knowledge on forums. It always was, and it always will be.

  21. I think the car community is very saturated, too many ‘car people’ in my opinion.

    Also, many people think it’s en vogue to hate on things that don’t exactly apply to them and/or have limited knowledge on the subject. You see this all the time on forums, social media, and Youtube. Non technically inclined people love drama.
    Examples:
    -People hating on the new Supra/Civic Type R/BRZ FRS that aren’t even in a position to purchase said car and/or haven’t driven them.
    -People blaming the tuner when their car blows up even though their setup is wrong, i.e., car runs lean because fuel filter is too small for the setup or car doesn’t run right due to electrical problems from their ‘custom’ tucked harness…
    -It’s one thing if the manufacturer produces crap, it’s another thing if the product is actually decent and the end-user doesn’t know how to properly install and use the product they are installing.

    I think a little humility goes a long way…..

  22. Funny, I don’t think I’ve met anyone you’re complaining about. There are many reasons this passion is a dying one, and being critical about cars isn’t one. Automotive journalism is a good thing; this piece certainly wasn’t any of that. People have always bitched about new cars and nostalgic about the stuff they grew up with. This is not a ‘recent issue’.

    And yes, it’s ok to be frustrated at the lack of manual transmission availabilities, but your dollars speak louder than words.

  23. By far this is the greatest article explaining how the car culture has changed, for the worse, over the last many years. Everyone knows everything, everyone else is wrong and only my opinion matters over anyone elses. It use to be a area to show what you did with your time, money, and abilities.. now it’s a completely different scene.

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